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GametagAeonFlux
- Posts: 9320
- Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 7:27 pm
- Location: Lincoln, NE
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Well you'd have to take into account the difficulty of things. Say 2 people make a meta swap mod. 1 guy uses a program that makes it 2 clicks, but he wrote the program himself. The other guy swapped the metas in hex. It could go either way, maybe the 1st guy knew programming well and it was easy to write the program, but it would also require knowledge of hex, so he would have the harder time. I hope my opinion helped.
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Iron_Forge
- Posts: 532
- Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 9:21 pm
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You're assuming the app would be sufficient to handle the next mod, and wouldn't require considerable more work to consistantly make better mods...
And by the same token, the person who spent 3 months without a mod would know what they were doing the second time around, and probably would have written plugins to make their life easier...
I'm not sure why modders shoud be demeened or their mods thought less of just because they put their efforts to better use...You could toss out the arguement "but I don't know how to program"...Well, several others could toss out "I don't know how to mod with a hex editor"...These aren't things modders were born with, they all learned the same way...Not all of us can skin or model either...This is probably why modding groups are becomming so popular...You team with people who are stronger in the areas you lack, or you learn to do things on your own...
Course, by your logic, if such an app was to be released, every modder from that point on would somehow be "less" of a modder because they got that 2 months of work done for them for free...But I suppose in the end, thats better than those 2 months being put to hard work...(And by work, I mean getting nothing done, and complaining they can't do anything cause no one tells them how... ;o)
And by the same token, the person who spent 3 months without a mod would know what they were doing the second time around, and probably would have written plugins to make their life easier...
I'm not sure why modders shoud be demeened or their mods thought less of just because they put their efforts to better use...You could toss out the arguement "but I don't know how to program"...Well, several others could toss out "I don't know how to mod with a hex editor"...These aren't things modders were born with, they all learned the same way...Not all of us can skin or model either...This is probably why modding groups are becomming so popular...You team with people who are stronger in the areas you lack, or you learn to do things on your own...
Course, by your logic, if such an app was to be released, every modder from that point on would somehow be "less" of a modder because they got that 2 months of work done for them for free...But I suppose in the end, thats better than those 2 months being put to hard work...(And by work, I mean getting nothing done, and complaining they can't do anything cause no one tells them how... ;o)
to make any h2 program you need to kno hex but its not necessary to use a program to do anything. if a program can do it then so can u, it just might take longer....and by knowing hex you can also do stuff that programs cant.
i see no reason why you cant make programs or plugs to simplify things...and if they dont choose to release anything then why waste your time bothering them when you could be out there on your own learning how to do it for yourself. after all, how fun would modding be if someone already did everything for you....
i see no reason why you cant make programs or plugs to simplify things...and if they dont choose to release anything then why waste your time bothering them when you could be out there on your own learning how to do it for yourself. after all, how fun would modding be if someone already did everything for you....
i REALLY hope you weren't talking to me... because that's wt I JUST said... lolxbox7887 wrote:to make any h2 program you need to kno hex but its not necessary to use a program to do anything. if a program can do it then so can u, it just might take longer....and by knowing hex you can also do stuff that programs cant.
i see no reason why you cant make programs or plugs to simplify things...and if they dont choose to release anything then why waste your time bothering them when you could be out there on your own learning how to do it for yourself. after all, how fun would modding be if someone already did everything for you....
I don't want to start another discussion about tools & people creating them & releasing them & whoring them & leaking them & so on, so this will be my only post about it, because I would like to say something to TfAv1228.
TfAv1228, I don't know why you think this mod wasn't as much work as any other mod. If anything, it was much more. Every part of this mod was either done with existing public tools, or tools I created myself.
Maybe you don't understand that in order to write a program which does something, you have to know how to do it in the first place. Programming doesn't magically make things happen.
Here's an example of why I think what you're saying is rediculus:
In order to swap a dependency, I could write a program which reads the map's file header, and gets the index offset. Then scans the index and displays a list of tags in the map. When you select a tag, it could then scan that tag's meta for a list of dependencies. Then, when a dependency is selected, it would give you a list of options to change to. To me, this would be a relatively simple program.
However, instead of doing that, I could goto the TF6 offset lists, find the meta offset of the tag I wanted. Find the Identity of the dependency I wanted to change. Find that dependency in the meta in a hex editor. Look up the Identity of the new dependency I want, and write it in there. To me, this is a pain in the butt.
OK, so, the first method might take a little more time upfront.. but now say I wanted to do a second tag. All I have to do is pick that tag in the program's list, find a dependency and swap it. So the 2nd time is much faster.
I enjoy programming, so I would definately take the first method. Plus, it's better in the long run if I want to do more. So you're telling me, that if I spent 30 minutes making a dependency swapper, and then a few days swapping dependencies, but someone else spent the entire week swapping dependcies by hand, my mod would be worse, because it was easier? Doubt it.
But, now put this into perspective. How many people could make the mods they do today without ADI, h2x, and all these other programs which people write and give out. It's like getting the best deal from both options. You get a program which makes modding simple, and you don't have to put forth the upfront effort.
I could understand your statement if I had just been handed a complete set of sweet tools that nobody else had, didn't put any effort into creating them myself, and then spent 30 minutes making a mod and released it, but that's not the case. I made these tools, then I used them to make this mod.
It's the programmers who make the majority of modding possible (Can you even imagine doing half of the things ADI, ES, Ch2r, DotHalo, or h2x does for you by hand??), so if you think that our mods shouldn't count or be compared with other mods because we have some sort of advantage, you're very wrong.
Sorry about the bitter post, but I would much appreciate an apology for saying that this mod was easy and should not be considered for MoTM. I've spent months of effort working on it & the tools to create it.
TfAv1228, I don't know why you think this mod wasn't as much work as any other mod. If anything, it was much more. Every part of this mod was either done with existing public tools, or tools I created myself.
Maybe you don't understand that in order to write a program which does something, you have to know how to do it in the first place. Programming doesn't magically make things happen.
Here's an example of why I think what you're saying is rediculus:
In order to swap a dependency, I could write a program which reads the map's file header, and gets the index offset. Then scans the index and displays a list of tags in the map. When you select a tag, it could then scan that tag's meta for a list of dependencies. Then, when a dependency is selected, it would give you a list of options to change to. To me, this would be a relatively simple program.
However, instead of doing that, I could goto the TF6 offset lists, find the meta offset of the tag I wanted. Find the Identity of the dependency I wanted to change. Find that dependency in the meta in a hex editor. Look up the Identity of the new dependency I want, and write it in there. To me, this is a pain in the butt.
OK, so, the first method might take a little more time upfront.. but now say I wanted to do a second tag. All I have to do is pick that tag in the program's list, find a dependency and swap it. So the 2nd time is much faster.
I enjoy programming, so I would definately take the first method. Plus, it's better in the long run if I want to do more. So you're telling me, that if I spent 30 minutes making a dependency swapper, and then a few days swapping dependencies, but someone else spent the entire week swapping dependcies by hand, my mod would be worse, because it was easier? Doubt it.
But, now put this into perspective. How many people could make the mods they do today without ADI, h2x, and all these other programs which people write and give out. It's like getting the best deal from both options. You get a program which makes modding simple, and you don't have to put forth the upfront effort.
I could understand your statement if I had just been handed a complete set of sweet tools that nobody else had, didn't put any effort into creating them myself, and then spent 30 minutes making a mod and released it, but that's not the case. I made these tools, then I used them to make this mod.
It's the programmers who make the majority of modding possible (Can you even imagine doing half of the things ADI, ES, Ch2r, DotHalo, or h2x does for you by hand??), so if you think that our mods shouldn't count or be compared with other mods because we have some sort of advantage, you're very wrong.
Sorry about the bitter post, but I would much appreciate an apology for saying that this mod was easy and should not be considered for MoTM. I've spent months of effort working on it & the tools to create it.
Blah blah blah
I know I double posted, but this one's back on topic and the above one is a rant I had to get out and I felt should deserve a seperate post 
I wasn't sure about Miranda when I put her in there.. but I wanted to put in a chick, and Cortana doesn't have the proper animations to be a playable character. Oh well. Like I said, she has a little disadvantage, but she does most things, and she's cute. What more can you ask from a woman?
Next time I'll take a bit more time to fix the bipd so it can do everything a normal elite or MC would, but I had been working on this for a wihle and wanted to get this out in the month of may and just barely made it ;x
Aequitas is helping me debug system link, so the next mod of this type that is released should work a lot better.
I think the next mod will be at good old Zanzibar, but I'm waiting for a good idea to come to me that will make for an enjoyable, well balanced mod, not just a mod which is fun for 5 minutes.
I wasn't sure about Miranda when I put her in there.. but I wanted to put in a chick, and Cortana doesn't have the proper animations to be a playable character. Oh well. Like I said, she has a little disadvantage, but she does most things, and she's cute. What more can you ask from a woman?
Next time I'll take a bit more time to fix the bipd so it can do everything a normal elite or MC would, but I had been working on this for a wihle and wanted to get this out in the month of may and just barely made it ;x
Aequitas is helping me debug system link, so the next mod of this type that is released should work a lot better.
I think the next mod will be at good old Zanzibar, but I'm waiting for a good idea to come to me that will make for an enjoyable, well balanced mod, not just a mod which is fun for 5 minutes.
Blah blah blah
A female marine probably would've been able to do a lot more, since I think Miranda is limited because she didn't do too much in Single Player.. a marine would definately be more versitile.
Perhaps I'll swap her out with a female marine if I redo this mod as system link compatable. I haven't played Single Player in a while. Can/do Marines dual wield, drive ghosts, or drive other non-human vehicles? I know they ride on the scorpion & drive/gunner in Warthogs..
Perhaps I'll swap her out with a female marine if I redo this mod as system link compatable. I haven't played Single Player in a while. Can/do Marines dual wield, drive ghosts, or drive other non-human vehicles? I know they ride on the scorpion & drive/gunner in Warthogs..
Blah blah blah
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TheTyckoMan
- Posts: 854
- Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 11:22 am
- Location: Tea co not Tie co...
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marines can drive anything if placed in them, but they can not dual wieldtjc2k4 wrote:I haven't played Single Player in a while. Can/do Marines dual wield, drive ghosts, or drive other non-human vehicles? I know they ride on the scorpion & drive/gunner in Warthogs..
I can get elites to, but marines can not.btw tjc2k4, can I quote you for other times when people say stuff like "this shouldn't be in mod of the month cuz it was made by un-released tools" or "that's nothing, he has a map builder so this is so easy for him" that'd be cool if I could
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"Teenagers, plus anonymity, plus microphone = idiot."-Bungie
Heh, thanks tyckoman, but let me explain what I meant a little better... I'm sure you'll already know most of it, but it'll explain what I mean a little better.
Each bipd links to an hlmt tag. The hlmt tag links to a model, animation, collision model, and physics model. What a bipd can do is some-what limited by their animation. I say some-what limited because it's possible to make them do things, it just won't look proper.
A quick example:
Miranda had animations for warthog gunner, but not for spectre gunner (because she never uses a spectre in SP). This means that in multiplayer, before making some script changes, she couldn't get in the spectre turret at all (she had no animation for it.)
She did however, have the animations to get in a warthog turret. Since the warthog turret's animation is basically the same as the spectre turret's (Standing, arms out front on the turret), I renamed this animation to make her able to board the spectre turret.
The result was, in game, she could now get in the spectre turret & operate it where as before, she couldn't.
So you begin to see why I say they're limited by their animations... because with no spectre gunner animation, she won't get the "Press X to operate spectre turret" message, and she won't be able to use it.
However, I say some-what limited, because even if Miranda didn't have any turret animations (I was lucky she had the warthog gunner), you could still change her pelican_driver animation to the spectre gunner, but then she would be posed in a sitting down fashion and it wouldn't look proper. So really you can make a model do whatever you want, it just won't always look right.
I asked if Marines drive other vehicles, because it means they would already have the animation scripts for driving those vehicles, and would require only minimal string ID/script swapping. Same with dual wielding.
It's the same reason you're able to make the elite's dual weild. They already have the animation scripts for it. It's also the same reason that The Arbiter can do everything an Elite could in my mod. He already has the animations (from SP).
So, animations play a big role in limiting what a biped can do, but they can be altered. The part that would be hard to alter is the raw data associated with animations.
I don't know how much of this is making sense, but I'll go on for just a few more minutes.
It's important to understand that animations have 2 types of data. Their meta data, and their raw data. The raw data is the actual poses/movements of the model, like in 3DSMax or whatever. This data is incredibly difficult to change.
Each model has it's set of raw animations, such as a standing pose, a sitting pose, a running pose, but if a character never sits down in the game, they won't have the raw data for a sitting pose. This is the major limiting factor. (And you can't just swap the animation with a model which does have a siting pose, because they would most likely have a different number of bones and bone names and such.) So this is the major limiting factor.
It is easy, however, to change the names of animations and make models be able to do different things.
A final example to help solidify things.
If Masterchief has a laying down pose which he uses while flying the banshee, it means he obviously has the raw animation data which puts him in this pose, and it's probably linked to a string ID called something like banshee_d (usually vehicle animations are d for driver, g for gunner, p for passanger). Masterchief also has raw animation data for a sitting pose which he uses while in the warthog, linked to a string ID called warthog_d. If you go into masterchief.jmad tag, and find his string ID called warthog_d, and rename it to banshee_d, it will do a few things. First of all, masterchief will no longer be able to drive the warthog. He will never see the "press X to drive warthog message", and even if you press X while standing at the driver's door, he won't get in. I'm not sure what it would do ifyou tried to drive a banshee though, because there would now be 2 animations linked to it. Anyway. If you then rename the real banshee_d to warthog_d, he'll be abled to drive the warthog once again. But the warthog_d string ID will be linked to the laying down pose for the banshee. So he'll look like superman driving the warthog. Similarly, he'll be sitting while driving the banshee because the banshee_d animation script is now linked to the warthog's raw animation data, which poses the masterchief in a sitting down position.
Soooooooo, if Marines never dual weild in single player, it would be very very hard to make them dual wield in multiplayer because they wouldn't have the raw animation data for it. If they did happen to have the same number of bones/markers in their model & same names as masterchief, it'd be possible to use his animations, but I doubt it'd work out like that.
Anyway, I'm done rambling, hope this explains a little bit of what I was looking for & what I meant. Maybe it'll help you get the marines to dual wield, although if you do, let me know so I can make it happen in MP also
Each bipd links to an hlmt tag. The hlmt tag links to a model, animation, collision model, and physics model. What a bipd can do is some-what limited by their animation. I say some-what limited because it's possible to make them do things, it just won't look proper.
A quick example:
Miranda had animations for warthog gunner, but not for spectre gunner (because she never uses a spectre in SP). This means that in multiplayer, before making some script changes, she couldn't get in the spectre turret at all (she had no animation for it.)
She did however, have the animations to get in a warthog turret. Since the warthog turret's animation is basically the same as the spectre turret's (Standing, arms out front on the turret), I renamed this animation to make her able to board the spectre turret.
The result was, in game, she could now get in the spectre turret & operate it where as before, she couldn't.
So you begin to see why I say they're limited by their animations... because with no spectre gunner animation, she won't get the "Press X to operate spectre turret" message, and she won't be able to use it.
However, I say some-what limited, because even if Miranda didn't have any turret animations (I was lucky she had the warthog gunner), you could still change her pelican_driver animation to the spectre gunner, but then she would be posed in a sitting down fashion and it wouldn't look proper. So really you can make a model do whatever you want, it just won't always look right.
I asked if Marines drive other vehicles, because it means they would already have the animation scripts for driving those vehicles, and would require only minimal string ID/script swapping. Same with dual wielding.
It's the same reason you're able to make the elite's dual weild. They already have the animation scripts for it. It's also the same reason that The Arbiter can do everything an Elite could in my mod. He already has the animations (from SP).
So, animations play a big role in limiting what a biped can do, but they can be altered. The part that would be hard to alter is the raw data associated with animations.
I don't know how much of this is making sense, but I'll go on for just a few more minutes.
It's important to understand that animations have 2 types of data. Their meta data, and their raw data. The raw data is the actual poses/movements of the model, like in 3DSMax or whatever. This data is incredibly difficult to change.
Each model has it's set of raw animations, such as a standing pose, a sitting pose, a running pose, but if a character never sits down in the game, they won't have the raw data for a sitting pose. This is the major limiting factor. (And you can't just swap the animation with a model which does have a siting pose, because they would most likely have a different number of bones and bone names and such.) So this is the major limiting factor.
It is easy, however, to change the names of animations and make models be able to do different things.
A final example to help solidify things.
If Masterchief has a laying down pose which he uses while flying the banshee, it means he obviously has the raw animation data which puts him in this pose, and it's probably linked to a string ID called something like banshee_d (usually vehicle animations are d for driver, g for gunner, p for passanger). Masterchief also has raw animation data for a sitting pose which he uses while in the warthog, linked to a string ID called warthog_d. If you go into masterchief.jmad tag, and find his string ID called warthog_d, and rename it to banshee_d, it will do a few things. First of all, masterchief will no longer be able to drive the warthog. He will never see the "press X to drive warthog message", and even if you press X while standing at the driver's door, he won't get in. I'm not sure what it would do ifyou tried to drive a banshee though, because there would now be 2 animations linked to it. Anyway. If you then rename the real banshee_d to warthog_d, he'll be abled to drive the warthog once again. But the warthog_d string ID will be linked to the laying down pose for the banshee. So he'll look like superman driving the warthog. Similarly, he'll be sitting while driving the banshee because the banshee_d animation script is now linked to the warthog's raw animation data, which poses the masterchief in a sitting down position.
Soooooooo, if Marines never dual weild in single player, it would be very very hard to make them dual wield in multiplayer because they wouldn't have the raw animation data for it. If they did happen to have the same number of bones/markers in their model & same names as masterchief, it'd be possible to use his animations, but I doubt it'd work out like that.
Anyway, I'm done rambling, hope this explains a little bit of what I was looking for & what I meant. Maybe it'll help you get the marines to dual wield, although if you do, let me know so I can make it happen in MP also
Blah blah blah
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TheTyckoMan
- Posts: 854
- Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 11:22 am
- Location: Tea co not Tie co...
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I don't know why, but I just love to read tech stuff like that (even though that didn't go too in depth)
I've never changed the ones in the jmad before, but I have done it on the seats them selves. in like Jan I made the pelican drivable, by changing the script reference (string id or what ever) to that of the warthog. so yeah I know what you are talking about
btw, bungie probably left a bunch of things in there that were in preview stuff, maybe they left the dual wielding in there (in e3 one of the marines gave you his 2 smg's)
ps:don't stop your weekly rambles
I've never changed the ones in the jmad before, but I have done it on the seats them selves. in like Jan I made the pelican drivable, by changing the script reference (string id or what ever) to that of the warthog. so yeah I know what you are talking about
btw, bungie probably left a bunch of things in there that were in preview stuff, maybe they left the dual wielding in there (in e3 one of the marines gave you his 2 smg's)
ps:don't stop your weekly rambles
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